tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382369381372118960.post7011175604932814400..comments2024-01-08T18:25:51.974+00:00Comments on Kraut's English phonetic blog: a li'le bi' of bu'erKrauthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11932831673529849848noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382369381372118960.post-54905815186012498302013-12-28T21:19:27.128+00:002013-12-28T21:19:27.128+00:00The symbol Bell uses does not only have an ascende...The symbol Bell uses does not only have an ascender, i.e. reaching the cap-line, but also a descender, which a round bracket would not have. But anyway, it look more like a ligature of two round brackets than a Greek chi.Krauthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11932831673529849848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382369381372118960.post-27951391312130606562013-12-28T15:33:58.275+00:002013-12-28T15:33:58.275+00:00John Wells has a blog page on 26 April 2012 entitl...John Wells has a blog page on 26 April 2012 entitled 'Teens', where he responds to a query about possible initial glottal stops. All the examples concern /t/.<br />Start here and navigate from the archive list on the right:<br />www.phonetic-blog.blogspot.comSidney Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01138711082469220983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382369381372118960.post-83042143479450439232013-12-28T02:19:10.357+00:002013-12-28T02:19:10.357+00:00Bell did at least choose an example with [ʔ] for /...Bell did at least choose an example with [ʔ] for /t/, and an intervocalic one at that, 'butter'. Wells (1982, Accents of English 2) records that [ʔ] for any voiceless stop is particularly typical of traditional Cockney (roughly the inner East End of London), and also gives examples of [ʔ] for fricatives as well.<br /><br />I dream of seeing reports from earlier centuries. The best I can hope for is that Ellis might have something. Wells does quote a number of literary references to Cockney. Several from Dickens and Shaw, but they have nothing on glottal stops at all, so no examples of [ʔ] for /k/.<br />Sidney Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01138711082469220983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382369381372118960.post-61780548140993868662013-12-27T19:54:36.843+00:002013-12-27T19:54:36.843+00:00Yes Sidney, that’s true. But even without knowing ...Yes Sidney, that’s true. But even without knowing that Bell didn’t use alphabetic characters it is easy to tell that this symbol isn’t a Greek χ. Any British (and probably any European) foundry in the mid to late 19th c. had Greek fonts at its disposal that perfectly suited its Roman fonts, since most educated readers were still fluent in the language of New Testament and the Greek Classics. Bell’s symbol however is as high as <a href="http://typophile.com/node/12049" rel="nofollow">cap-line</a>, so it can’t possibly be a χ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382369381372118960.post-72984263875647804252013-12-27T18:49:29.006+00:002013-12-27T18:49:29.006+00:00Re-reading the above quotes it struck me that nobo...Re-reading the above quotes it struck me that nobody mentions that [ʔ] substituted the voiceless <em>alveolar</em> stop. Instead Sweet (1877) cites Bell and talks about “voiceless stops” in general, and both Sievers (1901) and Sweet (1908) talk about “Mundverschlusslaut/mouth-stops.” Are there historical examples of [k] being substituted by [ʔ]?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382369381372118960.post-81475504733642681772013-12-27T17:14:40.202+00:002013-12-27T17:14:40.202+00:00Thanks for the extensive collection of quotes on ...Thanks for the extensive collection of quotes on 19th c. glottal stops in English. There are one or two hints that glottal stops occurred in a few unnamed English dialects, but they all concur on quoting a Scottish example. The reason might be simple. Bell was Scottish himself and so took an example near at home, while Sweet and Sievers spread some of his ideas, so they followed suit. I don't now how Ellis regarded him. Ellis is on my list of things to do, to see how he reports glottal stops in various dialects. Another possibly simple reason is that glottal stops really might have started in Scotland. I'm puzzled why Sievers and Sweet were noncommittal about identifying other English dialects. In the later (1909) quote he also includes North English.<br /><br />I agree with Mythoman that Bell's symbol looks like round brackets back-to-back. Bell's symbols were composed of geometric shapes, that could be combined into more complex figures to represent various articulations. His symbols weren't taken from alphabetic characters.Sidney Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01138711082469220983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382369381372118960.post-20993875691444576182013-12-26T11:53:37.598+00:002013-12-26T11:53:37.598+00:00Re 1: breaking wind can sound like a stop as well....Re 1: breaking wind can sound like a stop as well.<br />Re 2: the symbol could be made up of a closing and an opening parenthesis.Krauthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11932831673529849848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2382369381372118960.post-15161405309327093022013-12-25T11:58:27.946+00:002013-12-25T11:58:27.946+00:00Two observations about Bell’s description and symb...Two observations about Bell’s description and symbol:<br /><br />1. More posterior stop contoids can be produced, though they are not known to be used as consonants in any language. I am talking about oesophageal stops, or belches.<br /><br />2. To me the symbol Bell uses look like two joined brackets )( symbolising the glottal closure rather than Greek χ (chi).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com